How Successful Couples Manage Money with Mariah Hudler

Do you and your partner fight about money? Most couples come into a relationship with different views about money and it can cause conflicts in a relationship, even divorce. 

Mariah Hudler’s passion is helping people create healthy relationships with their money. She blends her background in mental health and finances to help couples live a richer more satisfying life through productive money conversations. 

Mariah earned her Masters in Social Work from UC Berkeley, an MBA from University of Waikatlo and is a Certified Financial Therapist-I. She lives in California with her husband and son.  Mariah is the author of  You, Me & Money: A couple's quick start guide to building financial rhythm. 

If you are finding that talking about finances in your relationship is challenging this interview is for you. This e-guide helps couples start talking about money in a healthy way by building a FINANCIAL RHYTHM in their relationship.

Its hard to be a successful investor if you partner is not on the same page with you about money, spending, saving and most importantly investing for your future. 

Learn how to make investing simple for anyone and get on a path toward wealth.

Transcript

Floyd Saunders:

This is Floyd Saunders, the host for the Really Simple Investing podcast. And we have a guest today that is going to really answer some questions that a lot of us have in our relationships with our most significant other person, whether that's a husband, wife, significant friend, anybody that we share money conversations with. We're going to talk about that with Mariah Hudler. Mariah Hudler's passion is helping people create healthy relationships with their money. and she has a background in both mental health and finances to help couples live a richer, more satisfying life through productive money conversations. And I've never met anybody, Mariah, who has both a credential in social work, a master's in social work from UC Berkeley, and then a MBA in business, and that happened to be from a university in New Zealand. 

 Mariah:

That's right. Thanks

 Floyd Saunders:

I don't know New Zealand very well, so can you pronounce that for me? University of...

Mariah:

It's Wakatau

Floyd Saunders:

Wakatau, okay. And how was it that you went to Berkeley and then New Zealand? Can you explain that little aspect of your life?

Mariah:

Sure, I sure can. I probably have been an intrepid traveler ever since I left college. I was very interested in traveling and I made my way over to Ireland, which is where my family is from. And that kind of sealed the deal. I mean, other than that, I'd only been traveling a little bit and I'd met people over there. in Ireland that had been away from their families for two years. So being in the United States and having what I would say a very sheltered childhood, that was very huge to me to meet people that just traveled and worked. So after I came back from Ireland, I went into to you know applied to UC Berkeley. I lived at the International House and I continued to enjoy kind of getting to know other cultures and learning about their homes and I knew that I wanted to travel a little bit before I started working after my masters in social work and I had mentioned this to some Kiwis and they were like well you know that we could that you can come work over in New Zealand and it just piqued my interest so I looked into it and sure enough I could get a visa so I decided to go over for a year and I stayed for seven.

Floyd Saunders:

Wow, so you got to be really acquainted with the Kiwis then.

Mariah:

I sure did. And I had a lot of opportunity from a social work standpoint. I entered into I was initially went to Christchurch, which is down on the South Island of New Zealand. And a friend's father actually kind of helped connect me with the hospital. And I was able to secure a job there. And then moved up to the North Island about a year and a half later to Hamilton, which is where the University of Waikato is also located. So Yeah, I definitely wasn't ready to settle down after my masters. I was ready to kind of keep going and traveling and seeing the world.

 Floyd Saunders:

Great. And so how did you combine this social work background that you have, your masters in social work, and become a certified financial therapist after you got your MBA? I mean, where did that combination come from? Was it the result of working with couples and people kind of like, if you don't get your budget straightened out, I'm going to take you to divorce court? What happened?

Mariah:

I think I'd always had an interest in finances and even at Berkeley I was taking elective courses at the business school and I really got into personal finance in New Zealand because it was my first time really having a professional career making that amount of money, not like it was an extraordinary amount of money, but I had to manage all of it myself. I ended up buying a house there and I, you know, as a single woman it was extremely stressful. But, you know, I'd thought about like, oh, maybe financial coaching. But that really didn't kind of, you know, kind of sit as well because I had all these skills through social work. So I ended up, you know, continuing medical social work and did the MBA and executive MBA there while I was doing that and went into programs less into clinical work. And then when I returned back to the US, it just became a kind of a bigger interest for me. And I actually just happened upon the Financial Therapy Association, and I was like, this is it. Like,

 Floyd Saunders:

This is your passion.

Mariah:

This is my passion. Like, this will be what I will work for for the next like 10 to 15 years, so.

Floyd Saunders:

Now, did that come from some personal experiences or all personal experiences working with clients?

Mariah:

What did what did what come from?

Floyd Saunders:

That the passion to help people get through these conversations with their significant other.

Mariah:

Yes, I mean, as a social worker and just in, you know, I mean, I'm a sociologist, you know, I studied sociology and undergrad and I just love people's stories, right? And transformation is another kind of passion of mine as well. So it blended really well, whether it's a relationship as an individual with money or it's a couple working together to understand their money stories.

and create a new narrative for the relationship or the marriage, so that they feel confident and successful.

Floyd Saunders:

It just seems to me that so many times when a couple gets married, you know, they come to the relationship or whether, you know, whatever the relationship is, they come to the relationship with backgrounds that they may not necessarily even understand or know about as it relates to money and finances and who's going to spend what. And then all of a sudden, you know, they put their money into a joint checking account and one of them is spending more money than the other one feels they should and they don't really know how to handle that. All of a sudden, you're meeting with them in counseling because they want to get better, and they don't know how to do it. And then you published an e-guide, You, Me, and Money, a consumer's quick start guide to building a financial rhythm. So talk about that a little bit.

 Mariah:

Sure. So I would agree with you that not a lot of us have had comfort, well, even self-awareness about our own money stories and how we engage with our own relationship with money and then to come together with a completely different human being that we really love and have a lot of kind of hopes for going forward that I think we think that, oh, it'll just work itself out.

Floyd Saunders:

Yeah.

Mariah:

Um, so we tend to not have those conversations beforehand because some of them can be actually scary. Um, and may a lot of us don't even know how to talk about them, bring them up. So this book, um, yeah, the couple's quick start guide to building financial rhythm was really born from the work I was doing with couples and the process of that, I was walking them through. Because what I was finding in my practice was, um, people didn't know how to start the conversation, have the conversation, how often, how to read the other one and how, you know, what things could activate them or shut them down, avoidance, and just kind of different viewpoints on saving and spending. So there's a lot of intricacies to actually having a conversation, then also conflict.  embrace conflict. Like, I can't wait to have this conversation.

Floyd Saunders:

Exactly. I mean, I wish I would have seen this book, you know, years ago. I've been married a few times and certainly in my life, money has been an issue that has come to the forefront many times because one person wants to spend money, one person wants to save money, everything should be in a joint checking account, we should have individual accounts, you know, all kinds of variables come into that. What are some of the common difficulties that you see around money management? when it's a couple and they try to discuss things.

Mariah:

Um, yeah, so I would say one of the top things is, um, that they don't view, they view money as it's something that happens alongside of them rather than actively engaging in it. And what I mean by that is, you know, setting a time, setting a time aside to specifically talk about money, that, that this is a priority. I mean, Even in being in relationships, we can get kind of lackadaisical about like checking in with each other or setting ourselves up for success for the week. Well, it's essentially the same thing for money. I mean, if you're not carving out space to kind of talk about it, then it's going to come up kind of uncontained. And I see a lot of stress around what I call financial drive-bys from couples.

Floyd Saunders:

Financial drive-bys?

Mariah:

Yeah. where maybe someone's going through the bank account and maybe it's early morning, be like, what's this charge of da, da, da, da, da, da, da?

And we're not really ready to kind of have that conversation and it may come across as accusatory or critical.

Floyd Saunders:

Right, right.

Mariah:

And maybe it's not, maybe it's just of interest. So putting some kind of containment around it of when we have these conversations, how we'll have the conversations, how we need to show up. I always like my couples to start with something that connects them if there is stress around finances. So taking a moment to like give each other a compliment so that you know our stress isn't high and we don't start the conversation off in defense.

 Floyd Saunders:

These are some really good ideas. We're going to take a really brief break and we're going to come back and we're going to talk about the guide and how it helps couples that fight about money get out of those fighting situations. So this is the Really Simple Investing podcast and we're with our guest Mariah Hutter, a financial therapist, and we'll be right back. That's just a cue for me to take a break when I get the recording done and then we'll come back. Okay. And now we're back. And as I promised, we're going to talk about this guide. you, me, and money and what it does to help couples stop fighting about money, which is a really common problem, right?

What are some of the tips that you have in your guide to help people get out of this issue where they have these, as you mentioned, financial drive-bys, it causes conflict, one person being accused of spending money when they didn't tell the other or whatever the situation is. What do you do to help them?

Mariah:

So it's a bit of a process, but first we start with kind of self-awareness. So understanding each individual's money story. And a lot of us haven't really kind of even ever had this conversation with, you know, reflection with ourselves and most importantly, not with our partners. So where we come from and how we arrive at life as adults is highly influenced by our role modeling in the United States. You know, we are in a consumeristic culture. Our parents, families, culture, religion, all of these things can impact how we engage with our money. So it's important to know that about the other person because that increases compassion and understanding. And then just to identify what one's money's beliefs is around spending and saving.

Floyd Saunders:

So would you say you're a Freudian type of psychologist, that we learn our many beliefs from our parents and we don't even consciously aware of that?

Mariah:

I would say that there's a portion of that, but I'm also very much in the kind of here and present now of what you do with that information, right, and how it pertains to your relationship and present day.

 Floyd Saunders:

As adults, we can stop blaming our parents for whatever happened and take responsibility for manager and money is basically what you're saying, right?

Mariah:

Right, we need some skills and we need some ability to work through some of these limiting messages we may have received. Because we have to, we're moving forward together with someone, with our partner.

And you know, I use values as a way to, I work with each of the couples to understand what's important to them, how they wanna live their life. And then also for the marriage, like what kind of values do the marriage want? or is it necessary? And that's where you can make your decisions around spending from. Because the two of you are deciding together what kind of values you want for the relationship. Say if it's freedom, like financial freedom. Okay, well, you might have to make some pretty serious decisions around saving to become financially free. you have to talk about like for your podcast for investing, you know what what that means.

Floyd Saunders:

lot of people are afraid of investing because they think there's a risk associated with it. But there's a risk for not putting that money aside and building up that money for the future as well. And that's really an important thing to be concerned about and work through. So what are the kinds of discussions that you get couples to have as they get into this rhythm around money?

Mariah:

Um, basically the looking towards goals, setting goals for saving, and then, um, looking at their lifestyles about how they want to live. Um, and then, you know, setting kind of future goals as well of like how to get there, like what will be, um, how they need to get there, what are the, you know, financial literacy skills that they need to increase for the both of them, for both of them to feel comfortable. And then most importantly about kind of checking in, like having those monthly meetings to push forward and address anything that needs to be addressed.

Floyd Saunders:

do you help them at all understand in terms of this financial literacy, you get beyond the point of budgeting and goals and having some money in savings, but then you decide, well, we really gotta get a better return than what we get out of a savings account, we should invest some money. Do you help them direct where they should put that money in terms of similarly like broad valued index funds, for example, or something that isn't high risk or high maintenance.

 Mariah:

I don't, that's definitely out of the scope of a financial therapist. Since my background is in mental health, I deal with basically the money and emotion side, but I do refer them on to financial planners and advisors, and I prep them to be successful with those conversations. Because, you know, as you said, that people... they may feel that that's beyond them, that they're scared, they don't know how to have these conversations, but after working with me, they're really ready. You know, they're asking those questions, like how do we grow this money? How do we get there? Like the different investing opportunities, whether real estate or the stock market.

And so as much as I encourage, like, yes, this is where I want you to be, that's kind of where our time ends. And I kind of pan the baton over. to a more qualified person in that realm.

Floyd Saunders:

Let's take for example, one person in the relationship wants to put money in the stock market and the other person says, oh, that's scary to me. My family lost money in the depression. The stock market goes down. All these concerns that they have. How do you address those kinds of things so the couple can get to a point where they have some harmony around the investing part?

 Mariah:

Yeah, I'd probably start to identify just the anxiety around what is the background, whether if they did lose it in the depression, to understand that a little bit better, and then give them some skills to reduce that anxiety, or challenge those messages that they have, holding them back. And then if they have the goals of growing their money, helping to kind of expose, like increase exposure, well, maybe we don't put everything right now, we just start with a little bit.

Mariah:

What is a good number for you? Where do you feel comfortable? And then kind of a reassessment as time goes on.

Floyd Saunders:

Now as you get them to go talk to financial planners and advisors that you might recommend to them, you know, I have like, you know, 35 years experience working in the financial services industry. And one of the things that has always bothered me is that investment advisors and financial planners, they have their own vocabulary. They talk about a lot of things that people don't necessarily have a understanding of relationship with. Essentially, they try to make it complex. Whereas that's why I set up. to really simple investing is because my ideas are you only need to do a few simple things and you can actually become a millionaire over time if you continually do them consistently.

 Mariah:

Right, and I really appreciate that because that isn't important for the couples and the individuals that I work with, is that keeping it simple is much more likely for them to engage in something like that than to feel that it's so complex. Yeah, a couple three key things to kind of anchor on that's digestible.

 Floyd Saunders:

So how do you deal with the idea that, well, I mean, it might typically be, let's say the husband in a marriage wants to put money in cyber currency, Bitcoin or something like that, because it's going up like crazy and it also crashes like crazy. And the wife is saying, oh, no, that's too risky, but I don't know where to put the money. And do you direct them to somebody that can have that conversation with them or do you have that conversation yourself?

 Mariah:

Well, I think that definitely calls for getting, pulling together a lot of information prior to having a conversation between the two of us. So each of them would need to understand, that avenue of investing a little bit more before we could have a productive conversation about what that looks like for the couple. I mean, typically there's, you can always meet somewhere in the middle. Each person may not. get their needs met 100 percent, but there's usually some happy medium.

 Floyd Saunders:

Maybe you would take a portion of your money that you have available for investing and put it in an ETF that covers a broad market, maybe a little bit of bonds. And there's actually some ETFs that you can invest in that cover cyber currency and cryptocurrency. And you don't have to do all that investing yourself and that somebody can manage that money for you. And while some of that money is growing rapidly, a little bit of that money is growing more slowly and maybe that makes the couple. satisfied in both respects. So a couple of questions before we wrap this up, maybe like a kind of a rapid round. Can I just ask you a few questions and you can say yes or no to these things?

 Mariah:

Let's do it.

 Floyd Saunders:

OK, great. So joint checking account or separate accounts?

 Mariah:

Depends.

 Mariah:

I would say based on research, joint is probably going to get you there faster. It means that you both have eyes on the money and knowing how it's being spent and can kind of work through there. So it depends on what your goals are.

 Floyd Saunders:

Okay, separate accounts for investing or joint account for investing?

 Mariah:

Um, I, I think that. I don't know, I mean, most people do have separate accounts for investing if they're working.

 Floyd Saunders:

Yes, the 401k type approach, you IRA or individual accounts, but you could have a joint account and that would cover that. Maybe the more important thing is when do you have these conversations? When do you get into this rhythm, as you mentioned? So as you're talking with your consulates, the people you talk with, how frequently do you recommend to them that they sit down and have conversations about money and review the budget and where it's being spent and what their goals are?

 Mariah:

Monthly. So initially I start my couples off weekly, but that's because they're learning a new skill

and then they should be able to you know widen that out as time goes on and they they feel more confident and They're able to handle it in a shorter amount of time

 Floyd Saunders:

Okay. And then Mariah, what's the best advice that you can give a couple that's struggling with money and having fights over it and, you know, they know they love each other, but they just can't manage that money? What's the best advice you can give them?

 Mariah:

The best advice is to... You don't basically... I don't know, it's more of like... There is potential to work through those things and it will require some learning and some commitment and maybe you have to do things a different way, but there's still potential in that. So you might have to.

 Floyd Saunders:

So when a couple comes to you, basically you're giving them hope, right? Hope and some skills,

 Mariah:

Yes, definitely.

Floyd Saunders:

And then that turns into a pattern or a habit that they follow consistently and helps some be successful. How much time does all this process take? Do you consult with them for weeks, months, years? Do you have a checkup once a year? What do you do?

Mariah:

So I have about six to eight sessions with couples to kind of get them up and going, increase skills, learn some coping skills, some communication techniques, and then it depends on what they need. And everyone has their own journey. So I have couples that are premarital, and those are pretty standard because we don't have a lot of those patterns and relationships already in.yeah, embedded. Where my long, you know, couples that have been married longer, it does take a little bit longer because they're also kind of recoiling patterns that they've already put into place.

 Floyd Saunders:

Perfect. Mariah Hudler is a financial consultant, certified financial therapist if you will. She combines finances and social work and her ePublished guide, You, Me, and Money, a couple's quick start guide to building financial rhythm is available from her website. We'll have a link for that in the show notes and in the description and you can get a hold of that and hopefully that will help you guys out. Thank you so much Mariah. 

 Mariah:

Thank you,  Floyd.